The Veterinary Survival Show
The Veterinary Survival Show
When Your Pet Needs a Lawyer - Interview with Boston Dog Lawyer - Jeremy Cohen
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In this episode, Jeremy Cohen, founder of Boston Dog Lawyers, shares insights into the niche field of pet law, including dangerous dog hearings, pet custody disputes, and the evolving legal recognition of animals as family members. Discover how legal professionals and veterinarians can better collaborate to ensure fair treatment of pets and improve outcomes in pet-related legal cases.
Key Topics:
- Pet law and legal system evolution
- Dangerous dog hearings and procedures
- The role of veterinarians and records in legal cases
Chapters
- 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
- 03:06 The Birth of Pet Law
- 06:53 Understanding Dangerous Dog Hearings
- 11:24 Legal Framework for Dog Ownership
- 14:13 The Role of Veterinarians in Legal Cases
- 17:03 Veterinary Records as Evidence
- 22:49 The Evolving Perspective on Pet Custody
- 27:10 Navigating the Legal Landscape of Pet Ownership
- 28:08 Memorable Cases and Lessons Learned
- 30:45 Veterinary Accountability and Client Communication
- 37:52 Proactive Measures: Custody Agreements and Pet Trusts
- 44:12 The Importance of Training and Responsible Pet Ownership
- 52:00 www.LGA.CPA (1).mp4
We know that running a veterinary business can sometimes feel like you're fighting your way through a jungle of financial insecurity, HR nightmares, and overall business confusion. Our goal is to give you the ideas and tools you need to not just survive in this jungle, but to thrive in the veterinary industry. By combining over 50 years of knowledge and experience with differing opinions and a little humor, we will help you get the information you need to make the best decisions for you and your veterinary business. Welcome to the Veterinary Survival Show with veterinary CPA and certified financial planner Mark McGon and Certified Veterinary Practice Manager and Practice Owner Jenny George.
SPEAKER_04Hello everyone, and welcome to the latest edition of Veterinary Survival Podcast. I know you're probably hearing this a week later, but right now it is St. Patrick's Day. Mark, do you I don't see your green on. You're not um celebrating today.
SPEAKER_05I went to elementary school in Galway, Ireland, so I don't think I have to wear green all the time because I lived in but we do have Jenny who is supporting the green today for St.
SPEAKER_04Patrick's Day. Happy St. Patrick's Day, Jenny. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_00St. Patrick's Day. I am doing well. Sorry I'm a little late joining, you know, business calls, but yeah, you're not wearing green on St. Patrick's. None of you are.
SPEAKER_04I get the green headphones, but I I know it's uh I should be repping it more, especially with the last name O'Day. Yes. To be expected. But all right. In other great news, though, something for our listeners, and this is we're always excited to have guests. Today, we are joined by Jeremy Cohen, founder of Boston Dog Lawyers. Jeremy started what was the first law firm in Massachusetts dedicated entirely to pet-related legal issues. His practices focus on things most people do not even realize exist in the legal world, including dangerous dog hearings, dog bite cases, pet custody disputes, and situations where pets are facing euthanasia orders. Jeremy has become one of the leading voices in what is often called pet law, working with pet owners, veterinarians, and trainers while pushing the legal system to catch up with what society views as animals today, not just as properties, but as family members. Good afternoon, Jeremy. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_02Good afternoon. Thank you for having me. And once a year, I'm happy to dig out my green.
SPEAKER_00There we go. There we go.
SPEAKER_02Autographed Boston Celtics jacket.
SPEAKER_00It's autographed? Yeah, I had And you wear it?
SPEAKER_01Ah, once it I'm happy to wear it once a year. For this, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Once a year. It's just the one day a year.
SPEAKER_01Never leaves the house. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_04Awesome. I love the Larry Bird 33. Uh can't beat it. Alright. Jeremy, first question. I'm gonna guess you get this a lot too. Apologize, it's uh retread, but again, our listeners um are gonna hear it for the first time. Most people probably don't realize a dog lawyer is a real thing. It's something I would love to have had on my career page when I was a child. How did you end up building a practice around this niche?
SPEAKER_02I'll tell you that the first six months of it, I didn't even tell my my folks about it because I just didn't I just didn't want to try to explain it and I didn't think they would understand. So a while back in 08, I was a lawyer just doing general practice, and my stepdog bit somebody. And I was asked by my stepkid's dad, could I jump in here? Because it turned out that the town wanted to euthanize Jesse, the German Shepherd, and and it was such a unique dynamic in the family that sure, I'll I'll jump in and protect Jesse. And I went to this hearing. Anytime a dog bites or or even scares somebody, there can be a local hearing held at the Board of Selectmen. And Marblehead held one, and they ordered pretty quickly that Jesse be euthanized. And I was stunned, A, because I called ahead and said, Do I have to be concerned about this? And the lawyer for the town said, Don't worry about it, nothing bad will happen. And I couldn't believe the animosity that people had. It was standing room only, and and I didn't get a seat. So I'm standing there in the middle of everybody trying to address this, and they compare Jesse to an al-Qaeda terrorist. This was back in 08. And I just and then I heard for the first time somebody on the board say, Don't get me wrong. And the person who says that then usually says, I love dogs. And then they make the motion to euthanize the dog. And it is across the board. That's that's how it plays out when they want to euthanize the dog. So I learned how to appeal it, and we won. And Jesse's life was spared. And it brought this non-traditional family together. Um and it it lit a fire for me because I wasn't a dog owner at the time, but I knew Jesse. You know, we would have him every few weekends, and I just was amazed at how they could get to such a bad decision without any facts, and just based on emotion. And my mission is just whoever's hearing a case, whether it's a judge, a hearing officer, just can we get to the right decision the right way? And the right way is to have a fair hearing based on facts.
SPEAKER_00I just think that that is we see that as working in the veterinary field, we see that unfortunately a lot. Sometimes the, you know, the decision that should be made is not, and it's very difficult to help them see the whole side because they're looking at a, you know, I mean, my nephew was bit in the face by their German Shepherd. And immediately my sister's like, I gotta put this dog down. I gotta put, and I'm like, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Tell me the situation. What happened? And it was just a miss, it was a they didn't train, they didn't know, and their son didn't know. And I'm like, this is a fixable problem. They never had another issue with that dog again. He was the best dog they ever had. And it's just like, no, no, no, we don't have to jump to I understand that you're scared, but we don't have to jump to that. Let's look at other options first.
SPEAKER_02So smart. And look at all the the joy they got from the dog after that, too. It's about learning to read the dog's body language. They're not always happy. I just filmed something for Dr. Nick Dodman. He was from Tufts and he's a dog behaviorist. And he's created this app called Be Bite Smart. And it's to teach kids of certain ages through sort of a video game process here's how to recognize and interact with your dog and know when to back off. Because you know the stats probably half of all bites are to children under 12, and half of those are to the are from the family pet. So I yeah, it doesn't help when the pet owner just says, I gotta euthanize my dog, because it's probably not the dog's right. There's so much more to it.
SPEAKER_04Right. Right, right. For someone, um, the worst happens. What actually happens during a dangerous dog hearing? Most people probably have no idea what the process looks like. I just think of when I think of dangerous dog, I think of back to Wizard of Oz when um about the the whole biting with Toto. So what what's really how what's the process look like in the real world?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right now someone's writing a book about the firm in some of my cases, and I didn't even realize the Wizard of Oz, how how on point it is until he pointed it out, and I think the book opens with that scene or something. But for me, these herrings are showtime. I just get so excited for these herrings. I can't believe that I would have missed this if I didn't, if it wasn't for Jesse. The reason I like these herrings is because everybody's expecting who's this dirt coming in trying to keep this dog alive who terrorizes the neighborhood. But that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm coming in there because I want to know why the dog bit, why the dog got out, and how we can prevent it. You don't defend these cases by saying you got the wrong dog. It's it's just that's not credible. But what is important to me and for my client is again, they have procedural due process rights. When the government is trying to take your property, and we have to accept right now that dogs are property, and any type of restraint on a dog is a taking, so you are entitled to a fair hearing, to procedural due process, which to me means I need the information in advance. What is what are the complaints about this dog? And so many won't give it to me. I need to know um who the witnesses are or what other complaints are gonna be brought up. And these are public hearings. So my role it it used to be to to find the villain and fight them, but it's I've changed. It's about educating the board and the people who are in the audience because a lot of people show up at these hearings. They're usually after dinner. People have had, and I always say they've they've had dinner. Some people may have had a drink before the show, some people uh you smell cigarettes, you smell, you know, people chewing gum, and everybody's ganging up. And and it's uh it can be a fun evening for somebody on a Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday night. And so I just try to do that.
SPEAKER_00I don't I don't know why that would be. I'm like, I can't think of anything worse. I'm just gonna go sit and watch them, you know, try and lynch a dog.
SPEAKER_02It just it it it amazes me every single time. And and it's pretty clear who I am because I'm the only person in the suit. So like there, that's the guy. But what happens is this mentality get there's a gang mentality that we all have to be, we all have to overwhelm the board to make sure that this threat, this dog, is out of the out of the community. We want to feel safe. So they start with the what ifs. What if this was a child? Um, and then they they go on to to embellish sometimes the stories about the dog where the pet owner is being absolutely just beat up. They're they're telling the board this is the worst human being in our town, and this dog is a monster, and that's just not true. And I understand some dogs have to be euthanized behaviorally, just can we get there the right way? And that means to look at the facts, have somebody who's smarter than all of us give an opinion about it. We often use veterinary records when they're helpful because the dog's in such a stressful environment that if the records don't show that the dog needs to be on trazodone or have a muzzle, that that the dog's accepted at the vet without um any type of protection, that that's a good indicator that it might not be the dog. Also, I pitch how we can improve the management of the dog. So these are this is the way I I handle the hearing. So suddenly people are like, oh. So he recognizes that this dog is a problem. And I'm trying to be reasonable about it, and it's up to the client to sort of take the heat for that. And I'll just say, I wouldn't want to live next door to this dog right now either. But here's what we're going to do. Maybe it's a better fence, better training, better equipment. Maybe the dog has to be medicated. And I don't spend time diminishing the impact on the victim. That's just not going to win a case. It could be any one of us who who get bit. And it's just the days of just saying dog bit, so kill it, though, those are over with. We're way too smart now with the things we have to improve the safety and care of our dogs.
SPEAKER_05Jeremy, are there laws in every town in Massachusetts that govern the ownership and maintenance of an animal? I mean, in my town, I think there's only a law that says you must pay your annual dog fee and submit your rabies certificate, and that's it. It's like a blanket, it's silence.
SPEAKER_00There's not even a leash law.
SPEAKER_05There's it's been op I mean, you're allowed to control your animal. It's not, it doesn't I don't think it necessarily specifically notes that it's supposed to be a leash law because we had an a park that had open leash. You could you could or off leash where dog walkers would go.
SPEAKER_01So every city and town can make their own rules, and some are don't even have a leash law.
SPEAKER_02But it's amazing the number of people who don't license their dog to. But it's also just a a fine if you don't. So what all these these herrings under Dangerous Dog all fall under one chapter in the Massachusetts laws, and it's chapter um 140, section 157, and it's particular to dogs who are accused of being a nuisance or dangerous. And some cities and towns have outdated bylaws where it calls for things that you can't do anymore, which is ban the dog from the city or town. Towns can't do that anymore because it's just kicking the problem to somebody else. But for the most part, it's all pretty similar. Some towns are more forgiving than the state law in terms of we'll give you a second chance or we'll give you a written warning and things like that. Um towns or cities with mayors handle it a little bit differently too. Usually those hearings are are quick, they're in front of the chief of police, they're during the day, and nobody gets out of line. So those are those are super fast and um and there's just more sanctity to them. People are more concerned when they're in the police station to not turn it into a circus. There's basic I think there's a law, an unwritten law between pet owners that we all should uphold. That we, in addition to the duties we have to our pet, we have a duty to each other. And when I see a pet owner whose dog bites somebody or bites another dog, and that pet owner just ghosts the person and the victim, that's not right because it could have been your dog that was bit. Like we owe that to each other at least. So hopefully that answers your question. So it's vague. My answer was vague, and that's where lawyers play. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05In the gray. It was funny when you're talking about it. Sorry, do they get veterinarians involved? I mean, we talk about expert witnesses all the time in the CPA field. Are veterinarians qualified to be expert witnesses in these cases, or do you need a behaviorist or something like that?
SPEAKER_02I try to utilize veterinarians. Now, some veterinarians don't want to go to a dangerous dog hearing because you probably have other clients, patients in that community. And as much as you don't think this dog should be euthanized, it could be uncomfortable to put yourself out there because you have to think of your business as well. Courts are hesitant to recognize people as experts. We use we certainly use experts and bring people in who we call experts. It's always important to have somebody smarter than the judge and then me about dog behavior. So that the judge can say, Well, I'm gonna base it off what that person said, so it's not really the judge's decision to save the dog, it's based off an expert opinion. But right now, there's not enough science. So to be an expert, there has to be a peer review about uh like a scientific method as to how you come to your opinions, and that just doesn't exist. A lot of tests right now that behaviors run, they're not blood tests, they're just they're not they're just like the sight test and put a put a stuffed animal in the room and see how the dog reacts, and that's very difficult to present in court when we're talking about how the dog react with a stuffed animal. So we're not there yet, but that there are behaviorists who have PhDs who are getting there, and it's just a matter of figuring out how to fit them into the court.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say there is a veterinary specialty, behavior specialists, but there just aren't that many of them. You know, my friend is one outside of Washington, D.C., and she sees a lot of cases, obviously, like this misplaced aggression or, you know, things like that, and is really does a lot of training with the humans who are usually at fault, not the animals. But it is hard when there aren't a lot of true specialists. I mean, obviously we speak with our clients about behavior, you know, from when they're puppies on up, but we're not we by our, you know, we're GPs. We just do general practice and emergency medicine, but we're not specialists. There are very few actual veterinary behavior specialists in the United States.
SPEAKER_05We have one as a client in the pet-friendly state of Colorado.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I probably know that one too.
SPEAKER_05I don't know if she's been called to be an expert witness or authority.
SPEAKER_02Strange, Colorado. I I get a lot of calls from Colorado, even though there's there's a couple of lawyers in state who who who do similar type work, but it's interesting you mentioned Colorado. Well, now I know who to call if we need a an expert.
SPEAKER_05I'll connect you.
SPEAKER_04Caramel, you touched on this earlier um about what veterinarians listen it. So veterinarians listen things they should be documented that could be reported in court. So maybe they can't testify as a expert, but their records could show up something important. So, what were those things again that would be helpful?
SPEAKER_02Sure. I think that the role of a veterinarian in so many of the various case types that I have is is important because beyond dangerous dogs, we handle pet custody cases, we handle wrongful pet injury cases. And so the records are so important for custody. One thing we're seeing is initially in the typical custody cases, two people who weren't married, who started to live together, get a pet together, and and then they break up and they fight over who gets to keep the pet. And one thing that everybody brings in are the vet records. Now, vet records are s are very difficult to follow for me because they build on each other, so there's a lot of repetition, and then there's really spot for one person's name in general, of the records I've seen. And then maybe there's a secondary person, and it might be the two people in that couple, but then someone calls the vet and says, I want you to take off, take Cheryl's name off the record. And sometimes people, the staff will do that more and more. I'm seeing veterinarian front-end staff saying, We're not touching this, but those records come in, and sometimes we we will show, look, this wasn't the record the way it was two years ago, and somebody called and got the name taken off. Or we also use the vet records to see when it says, you know, spoke with owner or owner discussed this with owner. It'd be so much helpful, more helpful to say who the owner is or who's there that day. Because a lot of people say, Well, I'm the one who paid the bills and I was the only one who went to the vet. Really? Because the records show something different. And it still matters who paid for the visit, who set up the visit, who got the medication that might have been prescribed, and and who got the instructions from the vet. So we don't just look at the names. I try to dig deeper and say, Well, were you at the vet this day when the vet suggested this? And so those records can be very helpful, especially to a judge, because suddenly instead of just proof of payments and pictures and social media posts, it's coming from a professional. It's the the next line of professional evidence that we can offer. So those can be important.
SPEAKER_00We talk about this a lot in our clinic. So I was involved in a custody, I got subpoenaed and I went three different times to the for the same couple to the point where they were stealing each other's dogs. I mean, it was wild. There was a lot of other stuff going on. But the records were able to show that because they had four dogs between the two of them, they were not married. I said these two dogs were owned by this gentleman prior to this relationship, and I could show that. And then, but I said her name was on all of the insurance paperwork for these two. So they ended up splitting them up twice, but they looked at who signed the surgery intake forms, who, right, all of that kind of stuff. But in most state veterinary boards, most veterinarians get in trouble because of lack of communication notes. So you haven't put any notes about communication in the medical record. It's just we did X, Y, and Z, blah, blah, blah. Here's how much it costs, that's it. But there's no notes about communications. Then the owner takes a complaint to the vet board and says, Well, they never told me, or, you know, they never said that. And there's no records in the veterinary record. So we, under each one of our clients, have something called Z and C C, which is client communications. So any communication that I have with a client that is money related, a complaint related, anything like that, that maybe not be part of this specific animal, but maybe be part of all of the animals, that goes under client communication. Yeah. So then when I get subpoenaed, which has happened, I can say, here's the record on these animals, and here's all of the conversations. Here are the threatening texts that we got from this gentleman. Here are the or off-the-wall conversations we had with this wife. And we can prove all of that. So it's very important for any veterinarians out there, your front desk. You know, there are a lot of, we've talked about AI on here before. There are a lot of AI tools that can take transcriptions of phone calls. And that's a great way because then I would call and say, hi, this is, you know, Jenny George. I have Indy, and I need to, you know, talk to somebody about her. Not Simon George calling. So all of those transcripts can be saved. All of those, instead of just putting talk to owner, talk to Jenny, I try to do that when I call back and check on animals. But it's so, so, so, so, so important to make sure all communications are in. And to your point also, Jeremy, about stating if an animal is comfortable or if it needs to be on trazodone, there are ways to put alerts under your patients. So we'll say, you know, Indy is the best girl ever, loves peanut butter, whatever. But then we might say, Oh, Jessica, who's my little Dog that needs trazadone, you know, needs needs trazadone or will bite when you touch her feet, or make sure you use muzzle this size. Every patient has a behavioral alert, which can help in situations like this, to say, look, this was a one-off. Here's this great dog who does great in this stressful situation, has never ever, you know, the vets are saying this is the best dog ever. Maybe something else happened in this case.
SPEAKER_02Here's how veterinarians are going to play an even bigger role in my cases, at least, in custody cases. Because we recently got a decision that for the first time in Massachusetts, an appellate court judge, a single justice, usually it takes a three-person panel to really change the law, but a single justice gave this opinion in a custody case. Uh a pet is uh is a family member, and he suggested that judges start to look at the fact that this is not a baseball car collection that can be split up, but that when considering who should get the animal, that the judge should consider what's in the best interest of the animal. So there's only a dozen or so states that look at that. In Massachusetts, so now we've for the first time we've we've gotten close to that. It's still not a best interest state, but best interest you can be as creative as you want to consider what's best for the dog. There's so many things you can conjure up. The from who has a yard to who has experience caring for the dog, who who goes to the vet, all these things. So I think looking at who could give an opinion about what's best for the dog, I think, although they may not want to, but I think some veterinarians are gonna be in a position to be called and said, Well, you've met both of these people, or maybe you've only met one person because the other hasn't come. So uh I think that's how veterinarians are gonna be it involved a little bit more. So it's you're gonna be the position it's a difficult position, it really is.
SPEAKER_04But you talk about the situation with my dog and um so my dog Hunter, he passed away, Greek dog. Actually, Mark, I mean, I was telling Mark about this, and Jeremy, I'll send you a copy. I wrote a book, a children's book, about my dog Hunter. When he passed away, my three-year-old son, we explained that he was in heaven and everything. He took that literally that he was up in the sky and he started waving to planes and saying, Hi, Hunter. So we wrote a book about that, about him flying around, and then he visits Steve. But beyond just self-promotion right now, came back to Hunter when he was my best friend. We were at the park, great dog, like similar sort of everything you said. Another dog attacked him. They had a little fight, broke it up, and uh the lady was crazy. Like you uh, your dog attacked mine, went nuts, are calling animals, all that stuff. Thank the heavens that uh a guy I ended up becoming friends with after, he was at the park, a neutral witness came forward. He's like, No, no, I saw everything. That dog went after that dog. And so I had a neutral party which saved me. But yeah, just uh story of how things fast can escalate. She was very adamant about like getting police involved, everything, my dog was the devil. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's every day for me in the calls. And once those emotions take in, because there's so much guilt from the victim dog's owner, were they not paying attention, or they get to so sometimes they perhaps overstate or minimum really make their role seem so minimal when it could have been their fault, but they just can't admit that that they didn't protect their dog. And to what your son does, my our dog, our golden Maisie, died last May. Someone got its wind chimes to have her name on it, especially during this windstorm. I mean, I'm still waving and saying I'm a Maisie when I hear those chimes. So we all find our our dog somewhere.
SPEAKER_04Speak speaking of dogs, Jeremy, so do they know that you're out there protecting them? Like when you're walking around and they give you a little like head or not head nod or anything.
SPEAKER_02As soon as I think that, it's holes are poked in it. Because I'll walk around my wife and say, see, they know. They know, they can sense it. But one of the scariest things sometimes is to go and visit a danger, uh, an alleged dangerous dog before the hearing. Because everybody wants me to meet their pet. But I know what they're accused of doing. And I'm a stranger, and I used to think, come on, they could never, they know, but they absolutely don't get it. And so it's and people think that I have to really bond with their dog before these hearings in order to speak up for them. I don't. I don't. I can take your word for it and argue about the law and stuff because it it's I've I've received a lot of training on how to approach strange dogs and cats. We're starting to deal with a lot more cats too.
SPEAKER_04I was gonna say, so it's crossed over to uh other animals. Uh cats are now getting phone calls.
SPEAKER_02I now have the confidence to take cases that 10 years ago I wouldn't. For instance, we've had rooster cases, pig cases, chickens, snakes, rabbits, bearded dragon. Somebody called about a horseshoe crab, but there's a kid sometimes. I think, is this a friend of mine just playing a joke? Yeah, if it's a pet, we'll hear about it. We we just got a really sad bird case, too.
SPEAKER_00Do you horses? Have you had any with horses?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we have. It's we're always horses are so different than dogs. There's so many different rules. For instance, you can't lease or rent a dog in Massachusetts, but you can with a horse. So there's some similarities, but it's a lot very interesting to deal with the horses.
SPEAKER_04So I was on your website, I read some of the reviews. I saw some of um you saving or doing the dog saving dogs, and also the custody hearings, and very exciting. So without naming any names, are there any very memorable cases you can share with our listeners?
SPEAKER_02Let me say about those reviews, because no matter how many good ones are, there's one out there that somebody who had called me who had an issue with a vet, and I didn't take the case in the review is blaming me for the death of their pet. That because I didn't, I guess, call the vet and say, you know, you gotta do this, instead of that, that it's my fault. It's just so unfair. Anyway, so many cases are my favorites, and sometimes even ones we lose. My favorite type of case is when there's another lawyer on the other side who calls and says, you know, you you can't win. Or I don't understand. What it what does your law firm do? Like, this is nothing, like that underestimate us. Those are the most fun. And then we lost a dangerous dog case because the dog, the dog was had some issues. Certainly, it was put at a boarding train pending trial, and it it bit somebody. And we had to make the decision to to euthanize the dog. And the owner met with me in tears and gave me the dog's ashes and said, Look, I never I never thought we could win, but I also never thought I could find somebody who would at least try. And that that's that's a pretty cool feeling out of a out of a loss. Um one of my one of my favorite cases is this case where early on a dog named Lily went to a boarding facility. And at the boarding facility, she was an older Westie, and they went to clean her cage. And because she was this was her first time boarding, she was like 11 or 12 years old, and she made a mess of her cage because she was stressed. So the person tried to get her out and she wouldn't, so he cleaned around her, which she then it burned her paws, the chemicals. So then she licked her paws, she had to have a quarter of her tongue removed, and she got pneumonia, and she survived at like eight or nine days in the hospital. And this told me I'm in the right world because when I sent our demand letter to the boarding facility saying this is your fault, the letter I got back from their lawyer said, When Lily refused to come out of the cage, she consented to what came next. I called the lawyer and I said, Thank you. Thank you so much because you've given me a soundbite. Now here it is nine years later that I'm still using. And they removed him from the case. The clients fired him. But that's the kind of thing that I think people were getting away with when there was nobody watching them like we are. And it's not to bring pain to people, but it's just to hold people who should be held accountable to keep them from walking away. One of my new favorite cases, and it's certainly we get calls about veterinarians. We get a call a day that the vet harmed or killed my pet. And and I know that that's not true. And I've come to learn that it is a one to three percent chance that that actually happened. And so we could not take any of them, which is certainly a possibility, or I've tried to change the model on how we take them. And we we require that the person get the vet records. Then we I put together an independent panel of veterinarians, which was very hard to do, who will re review these things and give us an opinion about the minimum standard of care. And even then, it may not be a case we're gonna take, but we use the red, yellow, green light scenario. So the most difficult thing is telling somebody you don't have anything, and then then we get the bad review, too. Oh, you must work with the vet. No, we're just you need to be reasonable, and it's an unfair. I mean, everybody blames somebody, but it we know how much this harms the veterinary community. But what's unfair is most vets don't know the kind of interference we're doing behind the scenes to prevent that. And we just got a case out of New Hampshire where my client's pretty adamant that the vet, their procedures cause her dog to die. It could be and it couldn't be, but I said, Why don't we do this instead? If you really want to change things, let me try something different. And I sent a letter to the vet, and I know this is difficult for veterinarians to do because your insurance companies say, Don't talk to somebody when there's a dispute. And that's why they call us, because you're told to turn your back. And suddenly this person who said, I I'm gonna love your, I'm gonna care for your pet like it's mine, suddenly isn't giving any answers when something happens. So pet owners automatically go to the worst case scenario. And if you could talk to them for five or ten minutes, even say, I don't know what happened, but we're gonna figure it out, they would not call me. But in this case, I said, I don't really know that we can connect it, but let me try something. And I sent her letter and said, Look, we're not suing you, but we want to meet with you. We want to have an in-person meeting. I want my client to be heard, and she's in the dog world too, she's a professional in a different arena, and we just want to see if if we can impact, maybe there was a procedural error, and it had to do with having too many pets come in at the same time for uh wellness checks when there are also emergencies and putting these pets under anesthesia before they were ever going to actually be seen and then not have them seen and things that develop from there. And I I was amazed, I got a response back the other day. Uh, and they're like, all right, that sounds great, let's meet. I love that because if we my pet the pet owner is gonna be heard, I'm not there to say you did all this wrong because how do I know what they did wrong? You know, I mean we've had the records reviewed, and but they're willing to speak, and that's gonna just dial things down, and if that's a start, unfortunately, you're uh they're self-insured, which is why they can do it. And unfortunately, the the lead insurer here for veterinarians, they don't help you at all, they they harm your practice so much, they have no desire. And I can say this after hand receiving, I think we've got fifth 1450 vet calls over the years. When they start to um negotiate or adjust the claim, they do not have that vet your interest at hand in hand at all. They're an insurance company that's looking to save money and and stick and protect the bottom line, but it's I think if Vets heard those conversations or read the communications, and this is where now certainly some shouldn't be paid and shouldn't be settled, but the communications are what really affect the pet owners. And and we've had cases where we've arranged for the pet owner to come back to the place and remain a patient, and that should still be an option. And the way this particular insurer handles it, it it won't be. And I don't know that you can fix that because you have to have insurance, but if we could ever just have more dialogue between the vet who was involved, not even in who caused anything, in just a few minutes, I think think things could improve greatly for the failings that veterinarians have when something goes wrong and it's not their fault but they're being blamed.
SPEAKER_00I think since we've been in many of these situations as a veterinary hospital, I very rarely call our liability insurance and we almost always handle it ourselves. We are privately owned and we can make that decision. And every now and then it comes back and it, you know, bites us in the ass. But for the most part, you're absolutely right. Clients just want to be heard. And if that means me or my husband sitting down with them and saying, tell us, and maybe they tell us we're horrible and we killed their animal and they just need somebody to blame. Okay. If that's who we have to be for you, okay. I can't change that. You know, we know we didn't do anything wrong. But sometimes mistakes happen. There's a reason it's called practicing medicine because we're all human and mistakes are gonna happen. And so, our goal, anytime we've made a mistake like that, our goal is to work with the client to figure out how can we keep that from happening to another animal. We're sorry, this happened to you. I don't, you know, we weren't even aware this was a problem until it is. And now here are the steps that we're gonna take to move forward. And it could be something, you know, I had a guy slip on our deck and break his ankle, you know, and so okay, I'm sorry that happened. Here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna rebuild the deck because it was old and getting slimy. And so, but as long as most 95% of people, I think, or even more, if they see something being done and they feel heard, are gonna drop it and be like, okay, you know, or maybe I'm not gonna go back there, or maybe I am. But the communication key, and again, this goes back to my communications under each client. Make sure that you document that. Met with Mrs. Jones on this day, we discussed her dissatisfaction with this case, heard her. This this is what she's saying, you know. So you have it communicated. You have what you said communicated, and then if it still goes through, you know, litigation, whatever, then okay, get your insurance company, and then but you can say we tried to solve this on our own. And yeah, they'll yell at you, but it's you're paying for it.
SPEAKER_02Another thing in the records I think that would be it's done, but I don't see it done clearly enough is owner chose conservative route first. Because most owners will do that, and then it doesn't work out, and then they say, Well, why didn't they do these tests at first? Because they told you it was super expensive, and these symptoms could be symptoms of 50 different things is wrong with your pet. So we're we're trying not to just ease into it, and they agree to that, and then then they hold that against you. I think making that very clear in the records is super important.
SPEAKER_05Jeremy, you're talking a lot about you know, reactive litigation. What about something proactive like a custody agreement? I had a family member who lost their pet because it was in the custody agreement. If they moved out of a shared home, they would lose the animal. And that's how it transpired. It was in the agreement. Should everybody have one and can they get one from you, or are you more involved in litigation?
SPEAKER_02Uh, we talk about this in my office all the time. The litigation is crushing, it takes a long time. We try not to, but the costs accrue. Somebody doesn't have the pet during that time, and it's just it we're we talked the other day. Let's start trying to find a way to mediate these, but it takes both sides. But the number one thing we can do, and we're doing this for some people now, is when they get a pet, just call us. We'll write a three-page thing. I know everything's good and you love each other, but you gotta prepare. And I guess it would come from the the the breeders, the shelters, the veterinarians. Hey, have you ever thought about just documenting this? Because it could save you so many problems. And we would rather charge less, get something in an agreement, something that's gonna be enforceable in court, and then you're good. And then because uh we just know these these relationships have a good chance of failing, and and the pain of not having your pet, the pain of losing your partner and having them take the pet, that's really difficult to overcome. So we would much rather prevent, and we will absolutely draft those. It's not template work because we know all the different ways, all the what ifs, but uh, I would much prefer do that. So would the team. It's really gets it's just like that's the the emotions of this can really um Mark, are you gonna call Jeremy now and figure it out between you and Kathy?
SPEAKER_00Because she might kill you.
SPEAKER_02Friend and family discount for you.
SPEAKER_05Thank you.
SPEAKER_00I have nine dogs, and I there's no way I can figure out who would get who.
SPEAKER_02Here's what we are getting into pet trusts. And because more people are calling about it. How do I prepare for my pet if I'm not around for that? In most states, especially Massachusetts, you can prepare for that and have it enforceable. And it can be anything you want, but you have to fund it. You can fund it with a little money or a lot, and that will depend on what type of treatment you're gonna set your dog up for. But and now, I mean, there's no more like, okay, I'm gonna live to 80 and everything's gonna be okay. You just don't know. And these dogs, some dogs, although some purebreds are living less than they used to, some pets, like birds, are are definitely outliving people. And what are you gonna prepare for that?
SPEAKER_00We actually, that's how I got my ninth dog, who is an 11-year-old black lab. And one of our clients, his friend ended up in hospice, and he took these two labs and one and he they hadn't been up to date in a while due to the gentleman's health declining. And so he brought them in, he got them all up to date. We helped him out with the bill a little bit because, like, that was just a crap situation. So then he finds a home for the two-year-old, and he's like, Well, I've got this 11-year-old intact male that needs a place to go. And I'm like, It's a lab. Okay, so now I've got this dog, but nothing was put in place, and it was just that our client just stepped forward and said, I'm gonna help out. This is my friend, I'm gonna help out. And he had the ability to help briefly, but right, people don't think about what happened. You think about what happened. Hopefully, to be fair, there are people, a lot of people out there who don't even have something like what happens to my children if I die. Like, I mean, you think about if you don't have something for your kids, get that done first, then think about the animals.
SPEAKER_02So you're so right that luckily this this friend stepped up, but what I've seen is, and of course, I don't see all the ones that work out. Nobody calls me and says, I just want to let you know. So I've seen where somebody steps in and then a a child or somebody close to the original owner who had no interest in the pet says, I don't I want it. And so now does the person who who took over have ownership rights? Is there something in writing? Or does this go through a will and and probate and through whatever the laws of property are? So this is not a commercial to hire lawyers, but just a little and you can write something up yourself too. Just have something in writing would help everybody so much. In these custody cases, what we do is we try to build what the relationship was through text messages. And all right, was it a gift, or did they say it's our dog, or I'm giving you this dog? And and things like that. But if there was just a writing, it'd be much much simpler for everybody.
SPEAKER_04I was that's astounding. I'm I always thought it was a little bit of an urban legend. There was a person I went to high school with, and the rumor was they got a big house because their aunt left everything to their dog, and that he got to live in the house because as long as the will if he took care of the dog, but things like that actually exist out there. You can have a live a will where like pro quein thing the measures of that character, your animal.
SPEAKER_02So yes. Now what the what Governor Patrick did, I think, in 2012 before he left office was he signed this into law. So now that money, they can direct that that money has to be used for the pet, that you can't spend it on yourself. You can't say justify buying a mansion so the dog lives good. That there's the trust property of the dog, there's the the person you're trusting to care for it, and then there's a trustee to oversee that, oversee the money and what type of life you wanted for your dog, if you wanted um wellness checks or to eat this type of food, and then there's a role called the enforcer who makes sure that everybody is doing their job. And I love that title. I would love to be enforcers on these trusts because just making sure that they're getting the care they need and that the money is not spent that way. Now, I'm not saying this person doing anything wrong because it wasn't through a trust. Yet now there's even more protection to make sure that dog or that pet is getting everything it needs. You the person who's doing it certainly gets money to cover things, and maybe there's a stipend, but they're not it's it's not a moneymaker for that person.
SPEAKER_04So we have a dog lawyer, Mark. You are a CPA for veterinarians, Jenny. You help uh you when you're out of practice, maybe I can have a future as a dog enforcer on the call. Uh for that.
SPEAKER_00Or no, that's just gonna go on your resume. Like, what do you do? Dog enforcer. On a retainer. I don't know that I have any questions. I will say, going back to the behavior aspect of what you do, because uh that is to me the most yes, I think that the the custody battles are ugly. They can get ugly in all cases. But when an animal either attacks a human or another animal or is attacked, it can be it's just so traumatic, you know. And I think that the importance, if anyone is listening to this that is not in the veterinary space, I think it's so important to understand the importance of training and starting training at a very young age. Because so many of these issues come out of things that we as people are doing wrong. And there is nothing that veterinarians hate more than to have to euthanize a young, healthy animal because of behavioral issues. And we have had to do it. And some of them, for good reason, you know, every now and then, same with human beings, we see it all the time, right? Like there's just a screw loose, and who knows? But, you know, there are every now and then you get that really unpredictable animal. But so much of what we see when we do behavioral euthanasia is you, as veterinary professionals, can kind of see it coming. You know, you've talked to them, well, mom does this at home, but dad does this, and the kids are doing something else, and the dog's not getting any consistent training, and they don't understand how to read human cues, and they don't know, and then it, you know, they bite, or they or they or they mess up the house, or they tear up the couch, or they pee, you know, whatever it is, and then the par the people are like, Oh, this is a bad dog. It's so rarely a bad dog.
SPEAKER_02But for vets, you are the only person who's in a position because you're the only pet professional. I mean, they'll they might see a groomer, go to a boarding facility, but as good as they may be, they're not professionals who who went to school and who are governed by by rules for professionals. You're the only touch point for someone who could say, here's things you should know about raising a dog. It's so much responsibility. Even before you get a dog, there should be things to consider. I wish that when you license your dog, they would give you a pamphlet that just said things to know. And because it's the training, it's the feeding, the walking, the exercise, do you have the right size home for this dog? Do you what about kids? And so many people wing that, just wing it and don't understand the responsibility. And that's one of the reasons, one of the reasons shelters are are filled. But where are people going to find this information out? And I know it adds to the job of a veterinarian, it adds to the job of an animal control officer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but you can we set it up so that our we have like puppy kits, kitten kits, at certain stages of their life, they get different information. We email it to them. It's a very easy thing to set up, and your receptionist can do this. This is not something the vet doesn't need to be doing this. We've talked before about the importance of delegating. This is not a job for a technician. This is not a job for the practice owner. This is a job for your receptionist that can easily just pass along this information. How to get your pet insured? What questions should you ask? You know, a lot of the stuff we talk about at eight weeks is touch your dog's feet. You know, because the I'm gonna tell you right now, you're gonna get bit, or your veterinary professionals are gonna get bit trying to trim a dog's toenails. Like they hate it. So touch your dog's feet. Just start playing with them and playing with them and playing with them, desensitize them. So when they do come in and we have to do a nail trim, they're not trying to kill anybody. You know, they're not pooping or peeing all over themselves. They're not, you know, it can be a relaxed atmosphere, but it is up to the veterinary professionals to give that information. I will say on our end, it is very frustrating when I constantly hear that we're in it for the money. Big pharma owns us. Let's see. I just had somebody tell us earlier this week that we're making decisions based on political agenda. I don't know what political agenda it is because I don't know. But you know, Google told me this, you know, and so it does get really frustrating. But don't stop fighting the good fight for you know, veteran professionals out there. We can do it.
SPEAKER_02You can. And and not every lawyer is an adversary. And as much as I want to hold people accountable, holding ourselves accountable too, we don't just throw things up against the wall. And I'm gonna take that with me, touch the dog's feet.
SPEAKER_00That's yes. Touch the dog's feet, touch the dog's ears. You know, there's all these things that you can start doing. Get your own pair of nail trimmers and just hold them to the feet. Don't trim them, just hold them to the feet and then give them treats. There's and there's so many good trainers out there, and then there are so many not good trainers out there. And the ones that might be on television might not be the best ones to follow. Just like not all veterinarians on TV. I know. Yeah, yeah, don't do that. Don't do that.
SPEAKER_05I'll make one comment. Yes, Jeremy, until we start licensing pet owners, you're gonna have full-time employment for as long as you want.
SPEAKER_00Are we gonna do that? Here's a test you have to take before before owning a pet.
SPEAKER_02Why not? It's such a responsibility, plus, it can be such a liability to other people. We we need to have a test because owning a pet is not a right, it's not a fundamental right under the Constitution for what from what I've I've learned. And then the other thing is I speak about this so much, but I'm sure I'm hoping you feel the same way about retractable leashes that they should be outlawed. The manufacturer of those are not doing anybody any good.
SPEAKER_05Usually usually they're fully extended all the time.
SPEAKER_00All the time, and they're not locked. And my favorite is when we have a reactive dog that comes in that doesn't want to come in, the owner brings it in, then sits right next to the door with the retractable leash unlocked. I know a lot of clinics just hand them a regular leash and say, here, I'll hand this back to you when you get. But no, they're the worst things ever. And God don't even care. We could do a whole podcast on how much I hate retractable leash.
SPEAKER_02I have a neighbor who has a 95-pound dog and he walks him on a retractable leash. And I don't want to be that guy. I as much as I just I see this all the time and I don't stop and tell somebody, you know, you shouldn't do that. Because I just I want to, but I just don't want to be that person because they don't I don't want to be a know it all, but they they do make I do think that's a future client.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. Well, Jeremy, um appreciate your time today. If someone uh wants to reach out to you, is bostondoglawyers.com the best way to reach out to you, or how can they um get in contact?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, through our website is good.
SPEAKER_01Uh we have a phone number eight. A dog attorney. I get it.
SPEAKER_04Oh, love it. Dog attorney. For someone like me and this.
SPEAKER_00Chris, it just took you a minute. I was like, oh, that's cute. Chris is like eight.
SPEAKER_02And we're on all social media like every everybody has to be right now. Always happy to answer a question. I so appreciate being brought into this world through you because there are so many more similarities between what we do and what veterinarians do that it's I prefer to team up than to uh go against each other. And I just don't know how veterinarians can do it with the emotion. It's and and I feel it, and I haven't touched the pet. So it just the things that like you said, the the bad things people might say and where they come up with it, it's just not fair. So we are actually doing our part one client at a time to to correct.
SPEAKER_04Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Appreciate being here with you three.
SPEAKER_04Awesome. All right. Until next time, everyone, um, thank you and have a great day. Thanks, Sure. All right.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for listening to the Veterinary Survival Show. If you have any questions for Mark or want to learn more about how LGA supports veterinary practices, visit our website at lga.cpa. Again, that's lga.cpa.